Indostomus Paradoxus and a shrimp tank

[beastie]

Will start a journal for this tank, though I suspect I may need a lot of help

This tank has weird dimensions, 56 cm x 25 cm x 36 cm and since april 2021, was turned into a shrimp only tank. Tank has no heater, a sponge airfilter with a large sponge. 70% of the tank is java moss, although a lot of the moss is covered in green hair algae. There is some limnobium, some cryptocoryne, some egeria densa. Leaf litter, a ceramic cave, a cholla wood stick. 

There are around 20 adult red cherry shrimp, no idea how many babies. Two ramshorns, unfortunately the brotia herculea I had there for a year didnt survive my week long vacation.

 

I have added 8 indostomus paradoxus on the 7th of march 2023. They are amazing, but I can already foresee some problems.

The fish only hangs out in the bottom space between to substrate and the moss. This means food distribution is a nightmare, because whatever I put in there, gets sucked into the moss, where the fish dont go and I dont know. Means the fish at the bottom wont get food, means the food in the moss will get spoiled.

The fish doesnt move much. It hangs in a place, UNDER leaves too, inside the cholla wood, near the plants. And it hangs there, sometimes it swims backwards, forwards aaand that is all. I have seen some attempts at hunting, the artemia, the microworms, but I have also seen the artemia bouncing on its head while the fish did nothing.

I am having trouble deciding how much to feed. I assume the fish needs constant food source, given how tiny it is, how small its mouth is. But if I feed there is no visible enthusiasm, no dashing to eat the food that would indicate the fish is hungry. They sort of behaved this way right after I put them in the tank, they hanged more together, they would dash around, hunt the artemia, even saw one fish swim upwards on the right side in the open area. Since then, I didnt even see the eight of them all at once and I have seen no attempt at active swimming or hunting. I am brewing an infusoria culture from a dried pellet, I have microworms and I fed baby brine shrimp in the beginning for three days in small doses

Who is enthusiastic about my feeding is the shrimp, the guys havent stop moving around since I added the fish. 

 

I wonder if I should give it some time and hope the fish manage to eat the food I am providing, or if I should do some changes, like removing most of the moss

Thanks, any advice will be appreciated

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by beastie
different picture with a better resolution

[TOtrees]

I had a few of these a year or so ago, and I feel your pain/confusion. They’re very cool little fish, but oh so shy. 

My concern was always the possibility of a hydra infestation, because of always having live BBS in the tank, and because these guys are such a slow eaters.

You might consider starting a culture of Daphnia, or better yet, Moina. 

[beastie]

On 3/13/2023 at 2:00 PM, TOtrees said:

I had a few of these a year or so ago, and I feel your pain/confusion. They’re very cool little fish, but oh so shy. 

My concern was always the possibility of a hydra infestation, because of always having live BBS in the tank, and because these guys are such a slow eaters.

You might consider starting a culture of Daphnia, or better yet, Moina. 

Exactly, hydra, possible planaria, algae... I wonder if adding one small fish would help maintain anything. Not a school of fish, those would outcompete, even the smallest boraras. Also darios are out, they also sit at the bottom, which is not what one wants. Something upper/middle layer that would help control the food, the hydra,... but not make the other fish starve or even cause potential fry to be affected.

Or maybe an amano shrimp could do similar job

[TOtrees]

I think you're simply in for some trial and error. My general suggestions/concerns/thoughts:

The fact that the sticklebacks are so small, and such slow eaters, and only (mainly) eat live foods will be problematic. Personally, given what I learned having them in the past, I'd go with a species only tank, and be prepared to tear it down/restart it occasionally (to deal with hydra). I don't think the indos will eat the shrimp or the shrimp will eat them, but I'd want a setup where I can manage or mitigate overfeeding with bbs. They like small tubular hides, so some pvc of cholla or whatever on a thin gravel base. A few plants for structure, preferably fake so they can be nuked. Floating plants or hornwort for water quality if you want (throw it out regularly and just keep enough to get it going). A bit of java moss won't hurt, but be prepared to throw it out if it gets full of hydra/detritus/etc. A few shrimp and SNAILS to help with cleanup, but no so much that you have to add food/etc to keep them going, bc it won't help the indos. 

I'd avoid the other fish option. You really need the bbs or baby daphnia or whatever to be in the water for long enough for these little guys to take their time eating. Anything that eats the bbs fast enough to avoid/reduce the chance of hydra will undermine how much food the indos get. 

These are my ramblings, based on having these fish for a few months. I'm not an expert, and maybe others here can offer better options. 

[beastie]

I am starting to reduce the moss. I cant do much at once, as it stirs too much mess (which happened yesterday) and the shrimp were not happy. I have the frogbit and I added a pennywort I will keep either on the surface, or root it once I remove the moss. The moss was too much, too algae filled and noone is going inside, except some brave shrimp.
I took out two fistfuls and what do you know, no visible difference in the moss volume.

Meanwhile I am seeing still only about 5 indostomus, but they hang out in the weirdest places, behind filter sponges, under leafs,... I feed twice a day a smidge of bbs or microworms and I have seen them hunting, just hours after the feeding and not well. Very cute though and they all look the same/fine. I still do not have enough of the tubing, will obtain some this weekend.

I decided to experiment, bought a breeding box and am putting a pair of whiteclouds into it for few hours. Given the box is too small and also necessary, so that the fish dont eat all my shrimp, I am just hoping they will manage to drop and fertilize the eggs in the short span I am putting them in there. I sadly do not have any experience with breeding and all the literature I read is not helping, as it just say "put them in they will breed". My theory is, that fry wont compete with the indostomus for at least 5 weeks and will help me eat the excess food, as I have trouble guessing the necessary amount. Will see if the breeding happens at all, if any fry develops and we can go from there. Maybe nothing will happen

 

 

[beastie]

Well i finally added the bamboo and it brought me to an idea of slowly remaking the tank.

The moss doubles in size since reduction, is not making me happy. Due to my breeding attempts i have to wait at least seven days since last one (today) to see if something lives in there. After that, will take it all out the tank in a transparent box and keep an eye on fry fish or shrimp.

I decided to add way more leaves and bamboo and create a sort of litter on the ground. It may work, it may now, it might look cool. From the plants i will consider adding the moss back but meanwhile will leave the frogbit and the pennywort and maybe an egeria densa.

 

I wonder how to manage with water changes, do one before, after, during...to not change too much, to not stir too much mess, to not stress the shrimp too much. Any tip?

 

[Lennie]

In the video we watched before, the bamboos were stuck in the substrate or something. Maybe try to stick some of them to the substrate, vertically, if they hold firm!

[beastie]

There are two propped up bamboo, the widest and the cholla wood, but all behind the moss!!! 

[beastie]

First part of the plan, i took out all the moss. Did some algae removal, some cleaning, lot of scaring the fish and shrimp. Added more leaves, more bamboo. Trying with the pennywort to place it in the ground.

Once i feel up to it, will try to separate some moss to add back. Not sure to add to where.

Good news is, during the horrible thing i did to the tank, i saw around six of the fish!! So not just the three i keep seeing 

Bad thing is, i don't think i have microworms today. Will see if they climb up.

[Odd Duck]

I would definitely add back some moss as that’s one of the best places for babies of all sorts.  Just add only a small amount since that’s a fairly fast growing moss.

[beastie]

On 4/2/2023 at 12:57 AM, Odd Duck said:

I would definitely add back some moss as that’s one of the best places for babies of all sorts.  Just add only a small amount since that’s a fairly fast growing moss.

I definitelly will, I just have a cold and dont have the patience required to sort the moss from algae at this moment🙂

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:07 AM, beastie said:

I definitelly will, I just have a cold and dont have the patience required to sort the moss from algae at this moment🙂

Maybe try Reverse Respiration and zap it ? 

[beastie]

I will try, but i want to rescue my ramshorns and possible shrimplets from the moss first 🙂

Also what the heck is a seltzer?

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 4/2/2023 at 5:01 PM, beastie said:

I will try, but i want to rescue my ramshorns and possible shrimplets from the moss first 🙂

Also what the heck is a seltzer?

Water with high CO2 concentration. Correct me if I’m wrong @Guppysnail @dasaltemelosguy

[Odd Duck]

On 4/2/2023 at 10:01 AM, beastie said:

I will try, but i want to rescue my ramshorns and possible shrimplets from the moss first 🙂

Also what the heck is a seltzer?

Seltzer water - like soda water but that has some minerals added that are not needed for RR and slightly change the pH, too, if I’m remembering right.  @dasaltemelosguy will know the answer about any pH differences.  I think it raises the pH slightly and May slightly reduce the effectiveness of RR, but it’s very late for me (early am, really) and my brain is tired.

[beastie]

Well I bought 2l of mineral soda water and 2l of "kids" aka demineralized but carbonated water, will test with both and let you know if it was effective.

I saw planaria in the bucket where I moved the moss to 😞 Makes me not want to add it back. I put hornwort there for a while, to not remove the biomass of plants completely to not screw the ballance. Tests of No2 and AM were 0, so all good. I keep seeing the fish too! Too bad my microworm culture is still not doing what I need it to do. I bought new jars for it today

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 4/4/2023 at 11:51 PM, Odd Duck said:

Seltzer water - like soda water but that has some minerals added that are not needed for RR and slightly change the pH, too, if I’m remembering right.  @dasaltemelosguy will know the answer about any pH differences.  I think it raises the pH slightly and May slightly reduce the effectiveness of RR, but it’s very late for me (early am, really) and my brain is tired.

Yes, you're right. Club Soda is just slightly higher in pH, around 3.5 vs 3. It's still plenty low for RR though. Club Soda with citrus flavoring drops the pH to 2.5. I've used it a lot because as people are seeing, it's easier to find than seltzer sometimes. I've been compiling a chart of popular carbonated waters available in North America because "seltzer" as a term has been hijacked for some sparkling waters where they're simply not carbonated enough. If it says, "sparkling water' or 'sparkling mineral water', it's probably not carbonated enough. I used Perrier once and didn't work at all. I agree with you in that the relatively minute amounts of additives are most likely negligible. It's probably a safe bet to use club soda if in doubt about a given seltzer as club soda is consistent and always carbonated enough. 

[beastie]

Almost two months have passed since I added 8 of these beauties. I see 5 at most these days at once, not sure if more are hiding under the leaf litter, they can literally hide under a leaf or you wont notice them on top of the leaf until they move.

Today I fed a bunch of microworms, saw three of the fish hunting together, sitting still in a sea of worms wiggling near their faces. It is sort of sad, watching them be swarmed by food and hunt like every minute or so, meanwhile the food falls to nooks and crannies and whatnots. But it is how they do it. Cant add anything to them, but they are fun. Luckily thanks to the shrimp the tank doesnt look completely empty, but it is a near miss. I put a small tank next to this one to share the light and put in some male endlers, to satisfy my fish watching craving. Those fish actually move and it makes me less inclined to add something to this tank, since it is mostly empty. I will however move the indostomus one day to the 25liter, because they do not appreciate the 40l at all and do not utilize the space.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/5/2023 at 2:18 AM, beastie said:

I saw planaria in the bucket where I moved the moss to 😞 Makes me not want to add it back.

Have you heard of no planaria?

On 4/1/2023 at 5:40 AM, beastie said:

Bad thing is, i don't think i have microworms today. Will see if they climb up.

Mine tend to be most active at night. Might be helpful to track things by checking at night.

On 3/26/2023 at 6:57 AM, beastie said:

I wonder how to manage with water changes, do one before, after, during...to not change too much, to not stir too much mess, to not stress the shrimp too much. Any tip?

I change 25% (I was changing more and may occasionally change more) once a week.

I don't do anything fancy but I highly recommend the details and methods you can find on Marks shrimp tanks channel with regards to caring for neocaridina species.

The main goal is that the water in the tank is similar to the water you're putting back in. If there's a large discrepancy in temperature, GH, KH, then that would lead to stress. Oxygenation is another one that a lot of people overlook.

One final thing I will mention is that if you aren't normally doing a lot of water changes, you'd want to slowly acclimatize the tank to that new routine. If your goal is a certain volume of water per a certain amount of time, then I would start by doing half as much half as often and slowly ramp up to the rate that you feel comfortable with.

The main thing is to keep a routine. Meaning, water changes, how you clean the tank, and how you interact with the tank is what they will learn.

[beastie]

I did hear about No planaria, how it kills all snails, mts, bladder, everything. Is not worth it. I will be moving the Indostomus and shrimp to another, smaller tank at some point.

For now the tank works with mild changes and heavy feedings 

[beastie]

Managed to see all 5 hunting in the same spot today, took a picture, not the picture though 🙂 And yes, in theory there are 5 fish in that picture...spotting 3 is hard enough

 

[beastie]

I moved the indostomus and shrimp over weekend to a 25liter tank standing next to this 40l one. Was surprisingly easy. Shrimps I managed to net, given I only have adults (thanks to the planaria), so not a hard task.
Indostomus I moved also very easily, each set of bamboo pipe I took out using my fingers to plug in the entrances, in a different bowl I would pour the water out, if the fish was in, it would go in a bowl, I would wash all the tubes and rid them of snails and possible planaria and net the fish out to the new tank.
This allowed me to finally count how many fish I had, and rejoice, all 8 indostomus I got in march are still alive.
After the move they are a wee bit more active and visible, unlike in the other tank, some already occupy the moved tubes. I also fed live bbs yesterday to make them enjoy the tank more.

All and all, not bad for a move, more plants, they will have easier time hunting. They did not need all the space in the other tank and it looked empty most of the time.

Plus a funny story, I switched my endlers and indostomus, one tank to another. In the morning I go take a look and there is an endler in my indostomus tank. I am confused, try to recount what happened, did I put it in the wrong tank when I did the move in the evening, did I drop it by accident. Nope, it must have jumped from the new tank to the old through a 1cm gap on the side where the tanks are adjacent. What a coincidence and a happy ending.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by beastie
no idea what is going on with the pictures, neither one is upside down

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/12/2023 at 5:01 AM, beastie said:

no idea what is going on with the pictures, neither one is upside down

It's a bug of the forums.  Try to edit / crop the photo and it'll fix it when you upload it.  It's ok though, it happens!

[beastie]

[Ogpulchra2]

Mind if I ask what size bamboo tubes ended working the best?