Is it Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum?

[tortugo]

A guy told me that this is a couple of Kinosternon sonoriense. I don't think so and I would like to have your help.

I think these are 2 Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum...What do you think about?

Thanks for your help!

[justatwinturbo]

due to the skin condition and swollen feet/arms it's difficult to tell. We need a few more details if you could help us with this. First, do you know the sex of the animals? if they are both female, then that will answer the question pretty quickly, as female leucostomum do not grow that large. I also cannot see a post orbital patch of any kind, but the skin does look to be infected. also, how many sets of barbels are on the chin? Hopefully they are still intact. Can you post clear photos taken from directly behind the turtles?

[onekid]

I disagree. I think female Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum can easily grow to the size shown. The size is in centimetres, not inches if you look closely at the tape. That would mean they are around 6inch SCL. Also, the photos showing the head and neck patterns look nothing like Kinosternon Sonoriense that I have seen in photos at all. I'd say this is most definitely 2 Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum, one of which has or had a serious case of shell rot.

[justatwinturbo]

I disagree. I think female Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum can easily grow to the size shown. The size is in centimetres, not inches if you look closely at the tape. That would mean they are around 6inch SCL. Also, the photos showing the head and neck patterns look nothing like Kinosternon Sonoriense that I have seen in photos at all. I'd say this is most definitely 2 Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum, one of which has or had a serious case of shell rot.

Here's some quotes from turtles of the world by Ernst and Barbour (btw, I know that is cm, not inches. Surely I did not believe sonorans can grow to be 17 inches) quoting kinosternon leucostomum..."males grow larger (17.4 cm) than females (15.8cm)" both turtles shown are over 17cm. Descriptions are quite similar for both turtles, however there's another quote for leucostomum "a broad yellowish stripe extends backward from each orbit" given the skin condition, I can't say there are any stripes extending from the orbit. How can you be so sure you've never seen photos of sonoriense like that, when the turtles clearly have health issues? I'm not disputing the fact that they could be leucostomum, in fact, that's what i'm leaning towards, but given the skin condition, more details are needed. Here's a quote for sonoriense " the jaws are cream colored, and may be dark flecked" I see cream colored jaws, and one with dark flecks. Knowing how many sets of barbels will help, as sonoriense has 3 to 4 sets, while leucostomum only has 2 pairs, 1 large set, and 1 small set. Also knowing the would be helpful too.

[Razorclaw]

Here's some quotes from turtles of the world by Ernst and Barbour. Surely I did not believe sonorans can grow to be 17 inches) quoting kinosternon leucostomum..."males grow larger (17.4 cm) than females (15.8cm)" both turtles shown are over 17cm. Descriptions are quite similar for both turtles, however there's another quote for leucostomum "a broad yellowish stripe extends backward from each orbit"...

This means that Ernst & barbour could not find a female in excess of 15.8 cm. It does not mean that larger females don't excist, let's not forget that many reptiles virtually never stop growing... Samples on which many sizes and measurements are made, are often very few in number.

Concerning the colour...let's not forget that old, aged animals lose much of their vivid colours, K. l. leucostomum is no exception to that, apart from the fact that the colours might vary aswell from one individual to another one.

[onekid]

I disagree. I think female Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum can easily grow to the size shown. The size is in centimetres, not inches if you look closely at the tape. That would mean they are around 6inch SCL. Also, the photos showing the head and neck patterns look nothing like Kinosternon Sonoriense that I have seen in photos at all. I'd say this is most definitely 2 Kinosternon leucostomum leucostomum, one of which has or had a serious case of shell rot.

Here's some quotes from turtles of the world by Ernst and Barbour (btw, I know that is cm, not inches. Surely I did not believe sonorans can grow to be 17 inches) quoting kinosternon leucostomum..."males grow larger (17.4 cm) than females (15.8cm)" both turtles shown are over 17cm. Descriptions are quite similar for both turtles, however there's another quote for leucostomum "a broad yellowish stripe extends backward from each orbit" given the skin condition, I can't say there are any stripes extending from the orbit. How can you be so sure you've never seen photos of sonoriense like that, when the turtles clearly have health issues? I'm not disputing the fact that they could be leucostomum, in fact, that's what i'm leaning towards, but given the skin condition, more details are needed. Here's a quote for sonoriense " the jaws are cream colored, and may be dark flecked" I see cream colored jaws, and one with dark flecks. Knowing how many sets of barbels will help, as sonoriense has 3 to 4 sets, while leucostomum only has 2 pairs, 1 large set, and 1 small set. Also knowing the would be helpful too.

Hey there, sorry, been away at Easter on the farm with no internet access.

I know you didn't think it was inches, that would be ridiculous. haha, I certainly didn't mean to imply that. What I meant was I wasn't sure if you were familiar with the conversion from inches to centimetres. I know most people here think its about 2 cm = 1 inch, but that's not entirely true. It's 2.54 = 1inch, which is a subtle difference but certainly enough to cover the spread we are talking about here.

I agree with Razorclaw, I think 15.8 is pretty close to 17cm. We certainly aren't talking orders of magnitude here.

As we in Canada rarely get access to some of these more rare mud/musk species, I was relying on pictures I had seen on other prominent turtle sites. Please view the following pics of Sonoriense, as these are what I made my decision based upon.

http://www.californiaherps.com/turtles/pages/k.s.sonoriense.html

http://www.chelonia.org/kinosternongallery.htm

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?special=browse&where-lifeform=Reptile&where-taxon=Kinosternon+sonoriense

[justatwinturbo]

Sonoriense seems to be just as variable as leucostomum, which is why id hate to give a definite answer without knowing a few other details solely because of the condition of the turtles. I've read there are 2 forms of sonoriense also, not recognized but worth noting. I would put some hard earned money on these being leucostomum though, so it seems we are in agreement there

I am familiar with the conversion, and I agree with Ferry, just some worth while considerations on my part by quoting them.

[tortugo]

I'm sorry, but I can't have other pictures about these 2 specimens because they are not mine, and the guy who gave me these ones told me he can't take pictures better than these.

I'm sorry..

Thank you so much. I think they are K. leucostomum leucostomum.